Blowing the doors to Palm - Java programming for Tungsten handhelds

[asj]

All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).

Because of IBM and Palm's new alliance to extend and solidify Palm's
dominance in the enterprise, it is essential for developers (whether
java, palm, or other) to see what opportunities might be lurking behind
these events.

For Java programmers, Why write to Palms?
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm#palm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm#pda

For Palm programmers, what's Java's J2ME? Why should I write in J2ME?
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/intro.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

today's headlines:
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2914374,00.html

--------------------------------------------------------

In one of the first moves to demonstrate that Palm Solutions Group (the
hardware guys) and operating-system spinout PalmSource (the software
guys) are two autonomous companies, Palm Solutions Group (PSG) has
announced that it will be making a Java Virtual Machine (JVM) available
for all of its Tungsten handheld offerings: the Bluetooth-enabled "T,"
the wireless wide area network-enabled "W," and the Wi-Fi enabled "C."

The change in strategy also affects the T2, a successor to the Tungsten
T that was launched last week.

The reason this announcement demonstrates the autonomy between the two
formerly married organizations is that PalmSource is so far content to
live without Java. For Palm users, however, including a JVM means access
to more enterprise, and consumer, applications.

PalmSourceCEO David Nagel has repeatedly insisted that the Palm OS
ecosystem can continue to thrive and grow without including a JVM as a
standard component.

In a recent interview, Nagel told me he had no problem with providing
both development environments --- Palm OS and Java --- to developers.
"But Sun is very difficult to work with," said Nagel. "They do not make
it easy. We were one of the early members of the JCP [Java Community
Process]. We tried to build a PDA profile, sort of a Java 2 Micro
Edition (the mobile JVM) grown up a little bit. But we decided that was
sort of a bifurcation, and that it created more problems than it solved.
Sun didn't like it. They wouldn't support it, so we decided that we
weren't going to go through with it and that we would leave J2ME be." In
light of that, Nagel is content with the 19,000 applications he says are
available for the Palm OS (up from 12,500 from last year) and the
280,000 developers.

But PSG director of strategic alliances Chris Morgan wasn't satisfied.
In June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"), in
all Tungstens moving forward. The move means that PSG now gets to tap
into both the Palm OS and Java ecosystems, the latter weighing in at 3
million developers and growing. According to Morgan, "The way I look at
is, we now have 3,280,000 developers."

To the extent that developers are one of the three lynchpins (in
addition to applications and users/installations) to most ecosystems in
our industry, the Tungsten ecosystem appears to have gotten a
significant boost. For PSG, this is a smart move, particularly because
the Tungstens haven't been doing as well as the company had originally
hoped they would..

This is good news for Java developers, too. Prior to the announcement,
Java developers had limited access to the Palm market. If they wanted
their applications to run on the Palm OS, their only choice was to
redevelop their applications natively for the Palm platform, or to get
their target customers to buy, install, and configure a JVM from a third
party like Insignia. With this announcement, the "anywhere" part of the
Java promise --- the ability to write software once and deploy it
anywhere --- is closer to reality. The target for Java developers will
grow by the number of Tungstens that are in the market.

[username]

<just another java rambling by asj deleted>

removed microsoft.public.pocketpc from the crosspostinglist, as this posting
is irrelevant to that newsgroup

[Brandon Blackmoor]

Nevertheless I consider this a good news - I
am a Java guy and have been waiting for this

Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.

I'm not holding my breath.

[William P.N. Smith]

Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?

Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?

[Ananda Sim]

Hi

Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
alternatives like EWE?

Ananda

Post by William P.N. Smith
Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?
Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?

java is comparable to the "3Cs" (c/c#/c++) in difficulty.
because the java platform is pervasive in servers and clients, by
learning java, you will be able to extend your reach from servers
(including mainframes), all the way down to smartphones, smartcards, and
other small devices.
J2EE (Java 2 Enterprise Edition) - for programming on servers
J2SE (Java 2 Standard Edition) - standard programming classes
J2ME (Java 2 MicroEdition) - for programming wireless and other small
devices.
we are concerned here with j2me.
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/start.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/
http://java.sun.com/
http://java.sun.com/j2me/
http://www-3.ibm.com/software/wireless/wsdd/
If you want to run just the standard MIDP, you will need to download the
http://java.sun.com/products/j2mewtoolkit/download-2_0.html

[username]

Post by Ananda Sim
Hi
Thanks for that overview and references. Whilst we wait for J2ME for
PocketPC (I assume there is none), is it worth bothering playing with
alternatives like EWE?
Ananda

http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
anyone taking the ball in their stead.

well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
cars come equipped with win ce devices ....

[asj]

Post by username
well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
cars come equipped with win ce devices ....

not particularly, since there will be probably be MORE cars coming out
using J2ME, which has GM and others behind it.
note that j2me will run on top of wince (or any other os like linux or
palm) if needed, OR it may run by itself as the OS - so by knowing java
you can also program on top of whatever OS is used....it's the best of
any world.

also, wince seems to be stumbling around:

for example, in the handheld market in europe:
"In the European market from Q2 2002 to Q2 2003, Palm and Sony (both
Palm OS) showed significant year-on-year growth of 45 per cent and 64
per cent, respectively. HP's shipments (Windows CE) grew too, by 2%, but
not enough to prevent its market share TUMBLING from 36% to 25%."

in the case of handheld phones, smartcards, and SIM cards for handsets,
it's not even close, with J2ME crushing wince in terms of deployment and
commercial success (not vaporware).
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

[Brandon Blackmoor]

Post by username

however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
move forward with anything for the latest windows ce

well thats bad news for java.

WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

Post by username
Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
cars come equipped with win ce devices ....

That'll last until auto manufacturers learn what computer manufacturers
already know. People grudgingly accept that their computer crash
periodically. They won't be so patient when their car's expensive
WinCE-based dashboard is as unreliable as their AOL account.

[John D.]

Post by Brandon Blackmoor

Post by username

however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
move forward with anything for the latest windows ce

well thats bad news for java.

WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

Well, the other 2 (Palm and Symbian) are also crap, but WinCE has
the best development tools between these 3.

[asj]

sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!

sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
with applets perhaps).

eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=mjrmv-g56.ln1%40host.newsservicer.org&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.java.advocacy

* this infrastructure is allegedly architected to be able to server 1
BILLION page views a day - it now runs 400 MILLION transaction a day or
75% of eBay

Java powers a major proportion of all the high end corporate
infrastruture. for example, just looking at one application server,
IBM's Java app server Websphere:

35,000 global customers use WebSphere:

65% of the Fortune 500 companies
80% of the top US healthcare companies
75% of commercial banks worldwide
90% of the top commercial banks in the US
67% of the world's largest banks use IBM messaging servers
15 of the top Wall Street brokerage firms
7 of the 8 largest US telecommunications companies

mix in all the other commercial java application servers (Oracle's,
SUN's, BEA's), as well as the open source application servers (JBOSS,
tomcat, etc) and you get the picture.

[username]

Post by asj

sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!

sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
with applets perhaps).

you are SO wrong about that .....

Post by asj
eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped

you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!

[username]

Post by username
you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!

dude, your comment was about Java in general...you obviously have no
wide experience with java since you're recycling old criticisms that
were leveled against desktop browser applets in the late 1990s. it's the
21st century and java has pertty much become the de facto standard for
writing applications for many small devices such as smart cards,
handsets, set tops (although that is still an ongoing battle), and
others. java is also widely considered to be the best solution for
server side development, because it is robust, open, scalable, and
cross-platform.

if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
advocacy?

and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
your handheld?

I love java, but no, when considering software for my handheld, I do not
care about mainframe scalability

new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
number of devices?

I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.

[asj]

Post by username
if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
advocacy?

so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
are GOOD?
or perhaps you wish that people should advocate BAD solutions?

Post by username

and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
your handheld?

I love java, but no, when considering software for my handheld, I do not
care about mainframe scalability

well, that's surprising...i would love it if my handheld apps were as
robust and scalable as mainframe apps...that way, as the capabilities of
the handheld grew, the apps would in turn be able to meet the increased
demands placed on it.

Post by username

new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
number of devices?

I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.

ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
the line.

for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!

or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
that proprietary app could NOT be ported over? with a standards based,
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
system.

[John D.]

Post by asj

Post by username
I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.

ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
the line.
for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!
or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
that proprietary app could NOT be ported over? with a standards based,
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
system.

From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more money
than "asj". :) Software is all about functionality. Faster,
full-featured software always sells better that portable but
feature-limited counterpart. Nobody buys applications with
a thought that it will need to be ported sometime in the future.
If you are speaking of custom software then people buy
hardware+software solution. In this combination they want
software to get the most out of the hardware. If the hardware
is specialized then software will likely be non-portable.
Better use of underlying hardware also makes software more
efficient. That means better return on investment. That
means they can shorten the upgrade cycle and keep up
with the technology better.

Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
or become obsolete 10 year from now?

[Brandon Blackmoor]

Post by John D.

Post by asj
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the
chances are it would not cause that much headaches moving
the app over to the new system.

From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more
money than "asj". :)

From that I conclude that you don't work with complex server-side
applications.

[asj]

now we actually get a post that makes some points!

there have been some BIG issues in MIDP v1 about compatibility with the
implementations on various handsets...this was a valid complaint (and
one i also posted and wrote about). however, this was only the first
version of MIDP, and the fact that there are so many devices (all from
diff manufacturers and with many diff capabilities) only created bigger
problems...

the many vendors and manufacturers have gotten together and have partly
adddressed this issue by releasing an architectural roadmap for future
developments of wireless java that will help guide companies and
developers.
http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=185

with the recent release of MIDP 2, there has been some notable
improvements in its capabilities as well. this will only get better as
time passes.

remember too, midp is targeted at LIMITED devices, the very ubiquitous
cellphones on the medium and high end range...it was never meant to run
on high end handhelds with much greater processing power.

i would also point out that arguments about the portability of midp
among various devices is sometime exagerated, or are made by people who
tend to use APIs which the manufacturer warns are device specific.
again, i will note the notion that "democracy is not perfect, but it's
the best solution out there." in the same way, "java is not perfectly
portable, BUT it's BY FAR the best solution out there"...try running
windows ce apps on a symbian or linux phone and you'll see what i mean.

finally, the success of java on small devices is obviously not
completely certain (in life, what is?), but it is definitely MUCH MUCH
more certain than the success of microsoft technologies, simply because
Java THRIVES in a highly diversified, highly competitve environment,
which describes the handset/smartphone area nicely, and somewhat the
handheld arena.

if you don't think microsoft technologies are in danger of faltering,
note that microsoft smartphones have NOT sold well at all, and even
advocacy sites for these are VERY frustrated about it:

"Smart phones continue to accelerate, but Microsoft smartphone still
fails"
http://www.msmobiles.com/news.php/1104.html

"Cardinal errors of Microsoft in cell phone industry"
http://www.msmobiles.com/article.php/34.html

In fact, handset makers have been forced to add MIDP capabilities to
their microsoft smartphones, simply because carriers ask for it.

<SOME STUFF DELETED>
Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
or become obsolete 10 year from now?

That is absolutely true !!! Here is a perspective from a devolted
Handheld Java developer for many years. If you doubt me, check out
our web site and apps.
Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
take off. Java apps NEVER run the same on different devices (pocket
pc, sharp zaurus, Sony Ericcson P800) and cell phones (nokia,
motorola, sharp, etc). You always need to make lots of modifications
for each device due to bugs on their Java implementation as well
as the performance of their Java implementation. End users are
only interested in great apps that perform well and have useful
features.
Sure 100 Million devices (cell phones) have some kind of Java in
them but tell me how many good quality Java apps are listed on
the must have list for these devices.
Java is slow and it is not getting faster. PersonalJava had specs
for 50mhz of higher and using Jeode on PocketPC devices with
200mhz is just about useable. I am not saying fast, I am just
saying useable, it can actually run ok. This is not only for our
complicated apps but also for simple calendars and periodic tables.
So what happened ??? Why can't we have great Java apps for these
new amazingly fast and memory loaded devices that are coming out ?
Go to Handango.com and search for the best selling apps for
PocketPC, how is Java doing there.
Since most cell phones do not have 200mhz processors and lots of
memory, you can just imagine the performance of Java code there.
Not to mention that the size of so called Midlets have ridiculous
limits like 10kb to 64kb. So basically developers have to ignore
all the nice features of Java and basically write spagetti-code
wrapped on one class to get Java apps out with some kind of
functionality.
This is so wrong and a guarantee for Java on handhelds/cell phones
to fail simply because no useful apps are able to be developed
for it !!!!!!!! Look at what developers can do with J2ME and
what developers can do with MS SmartPhone, on the long run this
is what will decide the winners.
Java always looks great on paper but the problem is reality and
that's why nobody can provide a list of the top 10 most innovative
Java based handheld apps. There possibly isn't that many good
handheld Java apps. out there and don't forget there are 3 million
Java based developers out there so what the heck is going on ???
This fact should be a direct message to the people behind Java on
handheld; I don't know about them but Microsoft is certainly
listening...
Carlos.

[John D.]

feature limited? where exactly did i mention you should limit your
features?

If you want it to be portable you will have to make trade-offs.
Let's say you have touch-screen handheld and smartphone applications.
Do you design single application that takes advantage of touch screen
at expense of cluttering smartphone application with redundant on-screen
controls or do you optimize it for smartphone at expense of application
usability on the touch screen? Or do you write 2 separate applications
for each device? Java or no Java, bridging the differences in
underlying hardware isn't always possible.

Post by John D.
Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
or become obsolete 10 year from now?

there's a much greater chance of microsoft and other proprietary
technologies fading away or being made legacy than java doing the same.

Oh yeah? How about this list?
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.1/docs/api/deprecated-list.html

[username]

Post by John D.
If you want it to be portable you will have to make trade-offs.
Let's say you have touch-screen handheld and smartphone applications.
Do you design single application that takes advantage of touch screen
at expense of cluttering smartphone application with redundant on-screen
controls or do you optimize it for smartphone at expense of application
usability on the touch screen? Or do you write 2 separate applications
for each device?

You don't have to go to those extremes. You can also write one
application with a UI that adjusts to the platform it's run on. A single
application that takes advantage of both.

yeah that's real portable...NOT. might as well make platform specific
binaries....

Post by John D.
Java or no Java, bridging the differences in
underlying hardware isn't always possible.

No. That is true.

of course it is true

However, often a well designed solution will work in
more situations than one might expect.

sure, but not in ALL situations, which was his point

[Eric Lindsay's spam trap]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:18:19 -0300, Carlos Bazzarella

Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
take off.

I won't install Java on any device these days. It isn't on my
Windows PC (Opera can be obtained without it). It isn't on my
PDA (although an old version is available). As far as I can tell
(and I admit I _may_ be missing some great applications), I'm not
missing much by taking this approach.

Java apps I encountered always seemed to either need a more
up-to-date version of the JVM (on the PDA at least that wasn't an
option), or there was some problem with something not being
available. The few I did run worked too slow to be acceptable.

I don't need these problems, so I don't use the product in which
I encountered them.

Java is slow and it is not getting faster.

I get acceptable performance from interpretted OPL applications
on a 34MHz PDA (although I'll admit some are better than others
when lots of data is involved), but didn't get acceptable
performance from Java. To me, that seems to say something is
still broken.

[username]

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:18:19 -0300, Carlos Bazzarella

Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
take off.

I won't install Java on any device these days. It isn't on my
Windows PC (Opera can be obtained without it). It isn't on my
PDA (although an old version is available). As far as I can tell
(and I admit I _may_ be missing some great applications), I'm not
missing much by taking this approach.

same here, When I bought my psion5mx some years ago, it was marketed with
statements like "java enabled!!!", well, I never used its java capabilities.
I once tried a java app we developed in our company, but was very
disappointed: the UI looked completely different than on PC's, in fact the
UI was unusable. And it took minutes to just start the app. It was useless.
so java on that PDA was useless.
Now I have an IPAQ 3970, but never felt the need to install a JVM.

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
Java apps I encountered always seemed to either need a more
up-to-date version of the JVM (on the PDA at least that wasn't an
option), or there was some problem with something not being
available. The few I did run worked too slow to be acceptable.

exactly. Java is (said to be) not hardware specific, but it is definately
(in my experience) JVM specific (although java advocates are denying this of
course).

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
I don't need these problems, so I don't use the product in which
I encountered them.

exactly, plenty of alternatives

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Post by username

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:18:19 -0300, Carlos Bazzarella

Unless the speed problems of Java are improved and also the proper
compatibility testing is resolved, Java on handhelds will never
take off.

I won't install Java on any device these days. It isn't on my
Windows PC (Opera can be obtained without it). It isn't on my
PDA (although an old version is available). As far as I can tell
(and I admit I _may_ be missing some great applications), I'm not
missing much by taking this approach.

same here, When I bought my psion5mx some years ago, it was marketed with
statements like "java enabled!!!", well, I never used its java capabilities.
I once tried a java app we developed in our company, but was very
disappointed: the UI looked completely different than on PC's, in fact the
UI was unusable. And it took minutes to just start the app. It was useless.
so java on that PDA was useless.
Now I have an IPAQ 3970, but never felt the need to install a JVM.

Applications are slowly driving the need to install the JVM. For example
if you want a CAS (Computer Algebra System) on your iPaq you will
definitively install the JVM. Check out some of our products !!! No speed
deamons but barely acceptable speed on a 200Mhz machine.

Post by username

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
Java apps I encountered always seemed to either need a more
up-to-date version of the JVM (on the PDA at least that wasn't an
option), or there was some problem with something not being
available. The few I did run worked too slow to be acceptable.

exactly. Java is (said to be) not hardware specific, but it is definately
(in my experience) JVM specific (although java advocates are denying this of
course).

Java apps are very JVM specific due to JVM implementation bugs and
inconsistencies.

Post by username

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
I don't need these problems, so I don't use the product in which
I encountered them.

exactly, plenty of alternatives

[Carlos Bazzarella]

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:32:27 -0300, Carlos Bazzarella

Post by Carlos Bazzarella

Post by Eric Lindsay's spam trap
I won't install Java on any device these days. It isn't on my
Windows PC (Opera can be obtained without it). It isn't on my
PDA (although an old version is available). As far as I can tell
(and I admit I _may_ be missing some great applications), I'm not
missing much by taking this approach.

Applications are slowly driving the need to install the JVM. For example
if you want a CAS (Computer Algebra System) on your iPaq you will
definitively install the JVM. Check out some of our products !!! No speed
deamons but barely acceptable speed on a 200Mhz machine.

Hmm, yes, a nicely specialised application. However I can
instead download YACAS (Yet Another Computer Algebra System), an
open source C/C++ program which has already been ported to my
PDA.

Sure, but we have over a thousand users that preferred to paid for and
use our sofware possibly due to the nice user interface and ease
of use. Most CAS are command line based and very hard to use and
even more so on a device without a keyboard and with a tiny screen.
Also our CAS provides step-by-step solutions that matches hand
based calculations. Hey not bad for a Java based PDA app !!! Go to
Handango.com and check out the comment we got on the Sony Ericsson
P800 version of Formulae 1 from an user that previously used the
Sharp Zaurus version. 'Asj' take a tranquilizer before you read
those comments :) :) :)


Carlos.

One apparently unmentioned problem with something Java running at
a "barely acceptable speed" on a 200MHz machine is that faster
CPUs tend to be battery hogs. The physics of the way they work
ensures that, despite all the wonderful tricks the designers have
managed to pull. A short battery life may be acceptable on an
Ipaq that gets stuck on a charge every night when home from the
office, but there are plenty of situations where that is
inconvenient or impossible.
Part of the reason I've been sticking to an older (and much
slower CPU - 34 MHz) model PDA is battery life. I get 25 hours
on time from a pair of AAs. However I don't have any illusions
about what that does to Java performance (assuming anything out
in Java now would still run on the old JVM I'd have to use).
I'll be flying around the outback for two weeks, and am only sure
I'll have convenient power on two days at two locations (Tennant
Creek, and Darwin, where I'm in motels). I'm not taking a
computer (so no USB cradle for charging), because the total
luggage allowance is 11kg (and that has to include some camping
gear and hiking boots). Can't bump that weight up, because the
light plane needs the weight for fuel to get the range required
for some legs of the trip. Actually, we were lucky most of the
passengers are fairly lean, or the luggage limit would be even
lower (and you can't cheat - you, and your luggage, are weighed
and a weight certificate issued before takeoff).
Even at places where I suspect there will be power, it will be
generator, not always a very clean output, and they tend to shut
down the generator around 9 p.m. in any case. I'm pretty sure I
won't have a power outlet in the tent. Some places don't have a
generator at all.
A long life PDA, especially one runs on batteries where you can
carry a spare set, can be pretty handy under those circumstances.
--
Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username
if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
advocacy?

so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
are GOOD?

no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that is
not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which you
are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.

Post by asj
or perhaps you wish that people should advocate BAD solutions?

no, what a strange idea.

Post by asj

Post by username
I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.

ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
the line.

ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)

Post by asj
for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!

same holds for java.

Post by asj
or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
that proprietary app could NOT be ported over?

you are assuming all future hardware will have java JVM's ..... think about
it

Post by asj
with a standards based,
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
system.

think again

[asj]

Post by username

Post by asj
so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
are GOOD?

no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that is
not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which you
are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.

(1) sorry, i do not have to claim anything. in the realm of handsets and
many small devices like smartcards, the numbers speak for themselves.

(2) you must not have any marketing experience - just because you are
doing well does NOT mean you just sit back and watch the parade flow
by...it would be like coke stopping all advertising and marketing
dollars "just because they're on top".

Post by username

Post by asj
ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
the line.

ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)

ah! but this presupposes that java is a MORE EXPENSIVE solution. in
fact, java is firmly aligned on the open source side, and there are TONS
of FREE tools that will always give you an ROI that is less than any
completely proprietary solution!

in this way, the COST to you and your client can be MUCH LESS than
using, say, microsoft technologies, where microsoft tries to gouge every
penny it can from developers and users in its quest to continue growing
fast enough to justify its high stock valuations.

for example, we could create a robust J2EE solution by using the open
source web app server JBOSS, the servlet/jsp container Apache Tomcat
(also open source), running on open source Linux server (the fastest
growing server OS in the world) with apache (the dominant web server in
the world by far). Total cost of software components: $0...ZERO!

and you'll create a solution that most likely is more stable, secure,
and robust than a much more expensive microsoft solution using
security-challenged software like IIS and windows 2000.

Post by username

Post by asj
for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!

same holds for java.

since java's chances of success are much greater than a proprietary
technology with only a limited number of programmers, then how could
this be the same for java?

in fact, look at how this microsoft developer is complaining about how
the frequent churning of microsoft technologies has left him tired and
dispirited:
http://www.angrycoder.com/article.aspx?cid=1&y=2003&m=7&d=17

the fact is, 10 years along the road, it'll be much easier to get a java
programmer, than say, a microsoft COM developer, or microsoft J++
developer, or even a microsoft VB programmer, simply because these have
now become legacy...again, java does not CHURN, proprietary technolgies
whose owners just want more dinero tend to churn a lot, to the detriment
of users and developers alike.

Post by username

Post by asj
or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
that proprietary app could NOT be ported over?

you are assuming all future hardware will have java JVM's ..... think about
it

well, it sure is in a hell lot more hardware than anything out there.
like is said, it won't be in everything, but nothing elese will come
close - certainly not microsoft windows ce (unless you're really into
stripped down embedded devices).

Post by username

Post by asj
with a standards based,
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
system.

Think again

uh....it look like you have minor real world experience with java so
short comment like this actually make no sense. try adding some
elaboration and examples.

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj
so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
are GOOD?

no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that is
not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which you
are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.

(1) sorry, i do not have to claim anything. in the realm of handsets and
many small devices like smartcards, the numbers speak for themselves.
(2) you must not have any marketing experience - just because you are
doing well does NOT mean you just sit back and watch the parade flow
by...it would be like coke stopping all advertising and marketing
dollars "just because they're on top".

I will ignore these 2 statements, as they seem totally unrelated, and they
are not responses to my points.

[asj]

Post by username
I will ignore these 2 statements, as they seem totally unrelated, and they
are not responses to my points.

yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.

and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
technology?

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username
I will ignore these 2 statements, as they seem totally unrelated, and they
are not responses to my points.

yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.
and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
technology?

ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
read it before, and we all read all answers to it)

[asj]

Post by username

Post by asj
yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.
and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
technology?

ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
read it before, and we all read all answers to it)

really? for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
amazing lack of ability to understand it.
i'd say it's more in the line of not having any argument to counter the
points.

please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
came....

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj
yes, please do run away when you suddenly find yourself forced into an
indefensible position.
and what happened to the rest of the post? you know, where i show that
java can actually give you an ROI (return on investment) less than
microsoft technology? or that even microsoft developers are complaining
about being on an endless treadmill as it continues to churn away its
technology?

ah, that part, well that was relevant, but it did not contain anything new
and did not contribute to the discussion, so..... I ignored it (as we all
read it before, and we all read all answers to it)

really?

yep

Post by asj
for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
amazing lack of ability to understand it.

I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread and
then explain yourself better.

Post by asj
i'd say it's more in the line of not having any argument to counter the
points.

thats not a strong argument mr asj. Try again.

Post by asj
please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
came....

well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.

[asj]

Post by username

Post by asj
for someone who supposedly read it before, you seem display an
amazing lack of ability to understand it.

I am sorry you feel that way, I suggest you re-read this whole thread and
then explain yourself better.

uh....so you can snip off 90% of the arguments that you can't counter?

like where i show that java can actually give you an ROI (return on
investment) much less than
microsoft technology, after you idiotically seemed to think fostering a
long term relationship with clients would somehow COST more if done in
java?

or that even microsoft developers are complaining about being on an
endless treadmill as microsoft continues to churn away its
technology every few years, while java's core has remained the same
since the beginning, simply expanding rapidly into other niches? this
way, developers can concentrate on creating better apps through
optimization or better architectures rather than having to worry that
they'll have to relearn new basic rules again every few years. plus, you
don't suddenly end up wasting years of learning and become one the
"newbies" after some newfangled language is "forced" on you (when your
expertise suddenly is now legacy).

Post by username

Post by asj
please, mr. "username", go back to the anonymity from whence you
came....

well, mr asj, the only reason you are known here, is that you flood
newsgroups with java ramblings. be proud of that.

uh...that's not what i meant...i meant the fact that you are anonymous
in your postings.

[asj]

Post by asj
like where i show that java can actually give you an ROI (return on
investment) much less than
microsoft technology, after you idiotically seemed to think fostering a
long term relationship with clients would somehow COST more if done in
java?
or that even microsoft developers are complaining about being on an
endless treadmill as microsoft continues to churn away its
technology every few years, while java's core has remained the same
since the beginning, simply expanding rapidly into other niches? this
way, developers can concentrate on creating better apps through
optimization or better architectures rather than having to worry that
they'll have to relearn new basic rules again every few years. plus, you
don't suddenly end up wasting years of learning and become one the
"newbies" after some newfangled language is "forced" on you (when your
expertise suddenly is now legacy).

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to counter
them....

bwahahahabwahahaha!!!!!!
that's it, when you have no idea how to counter arguments, either snip
them off without comment or give some nonsensical one-liners disparaging
the other side without addresing any points.

[m***@home.com]

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to counter
them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

[username]

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to counter
them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?

hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

[m***@home.com]

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online

http://dictionary.cambridge.org

Of course if you want to trust a dictionary that appears to have been
in existence for all of 2 1/2 years since 2000 and whose list of
contributors leads to a blank page

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/linkers.html

that probably says as much about your judgement and knowledge as the
rest of your posts.

[username]

Post by m***@home.com

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
Of course if you want to trust a dictionary that appears to have been
in existence for all of 2 1/2 years since 2000 and whose list of
contributors leads to a blank page
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/linkers.html
that probably says as much about your judgement and knowledge as the
rest of your posts.

ok try this :
http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/

[Eric Lindsay's spam trap]

Post by m***@home.com

Post by username
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
http://dictionary.cambridge.org

It is listed in Webster's New International, second edition,
sometimes claimed to be the finest single volume dictionary ever
produced, which means it dates back at least to the 1950's. Mind
you, I sometimes think that edition lists everything, as the
third edition lost at least 100,000 words.

[m***@home.com]

Post by m***@home.com

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
Of course if you want to trust a dictionary that appears to have been
in existence for all of 2 1/2 years since 2000 and whose list of
contributors leads to a blank page
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/linkers.html
that probably says as much about your judgement and knowledge as the
rest of your posts.

don't be so rediculous. are you an internet newbie? You are aware internet
is also available outside the UK?
tip: try an american dictionary

Not unless you count 10+ years as a newbie, and if you were capable of
reading headers you'd already know I'm posting from outside the UK,
but then you don't pay much attention to the details of other posts
that don't coincide with your prejudices, do you?

As for using an American dictionary as an authority on English - Uck!,
Gag!, Vomit! I'll stick with the authoritative sources if it's all the
same to you, and even if it isn't. I've been around too long to
consider trans-Atlantic mangling of the richest language in the world
acceptable.

But you might wish to check either the Oxbridge, or even any American
dictionary sources which appeal to you, to see if you can find a
single one which spells ridiculous as "rediculous". Maybe you'd have
better luck with a Communist one? :-)

However this is getting way off topic and, entertaining as it is, it's
really not my job to correct the obvious deficiencies in your early
childhood education and character development. Maybe you could find a
willing nanny somewhere who could take you back to the toilet training
stage?

EOT (May be available in an American dictionary or compilation of
Internet abbreviations, though should be obvious to anyone but a
"newbie". If not, bounce your two grey cells off each other long
enough and you'll probably come up with the meaning)

G'day Mate!, Au revoir, Auf wiedersehn, Hasta la vista, Arriverderci,
Sod OFF!

[username]

Post by m***@home.com

Post by m***@home.com

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Post by m***@home.com

Post by m***@home.com
Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
Of course if you want to trust a dictionary that appears to have been
in existence for all of 2 1/2 years since 2000 and whose list of
contributors leads to a blank page
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/linkers.html
that probably says as much about your judgement and knowledge as the
rest of your posts.

don't be so rediculous. are you an internet newbie? You are aware internet
is also available outside the UK?
tip: try an american dictionary

Not unless you count 10+ years as a newbie, and if you were capable of
reading headers you'd already know I'm posting from outside the UK,

so?

Post by m***@home.com
but then you don't pay much attention to the details of other posts
that don't coincide with your prejudices, do you?

I do, you didn't notice? well, never mind, it was just a detail.

Post by m***@home.com
As for using an American dictionary as an authority on English - Uck!

indeed! I hate that. who was suggesting that?!!!?
I was just suggesting to use an American dictionary as an authority of
American.

Post by m***@home.com
Gag!, Vomit! I'll stick with the authoritative sources if it's all the
same to you, and even if it isn't. I've been around too long to
consider trans-Atlantic mangling of the richest language in the world
acceptable.

thank you, very helpful.

Post by m***@home.com
But you might wish to check either the Oxbridge, or even any American
dictionary sources which appeal to you, to see if you can find a
single one which spells ridiculous as "rediculous". Maybe you'd have
better luck with a Communist one? :-)

perhaps too much to ask, but do you know what a typo is ?

Post by m***@home.com
However this is getting way off topic and, entertaining as it is, it's
really not my job to correct the obvious deficiencies in your early
childhood education and character development.

no one asked you to do that. so you're free to leave.
really.

Post by m***@home.com
Maybe you could find a
willing nanny somewhere who could take you back to the toilet training
stage?

I am not interested in your kinks. Please use other newsgroups for that.

Post by m***@home.com
EOT (May be available in an American dictionary or compilation of
Internet abbreviations, though should be obvious to anyone but a
"newbie". If not, bounce your two grey cells off each other long
enough and you'll probably come up with the meaning)
G'day Mate!, Au revoir, Auf wiedersehn, Hasta la vista, Arriverderci,
Sod OFF!

a+

[Harold]

I don't think even Americans spell it "rediculous".
--
Harold
When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Nov. 22, 1641, to the House of Commons: “A Speech Concerning Episcopacy”

Post by m***@home.com

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Well it's not in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, nor is it
found in a search of the Cambridge University Press dictionary online
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
Of course if you want to trust a dictionary that appears to have been
in existence for all of 2 1/2 years since 2000 and whose list of
contributors leads to a blank page
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/linkers.html
that probably says as much about your judgement and knowledge as the
rest of your posts.

don't be so rediculous. are you an internet newbie? You are aware internet
is also available outside the UK?
tip: try an american dictionary

[username]

Post by Harold
I don't think even Americans spell it "rediculous".

it seems you cannot distinguish between a typo and an error.
never mind.

thank you

[Harold]

Of course; I'd forgotten that "irony" isn't in the dictionary. Sorry.
--
Harold
When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.
Lucius Cary, 2nd Viscount Falkland
Nov. 22, 1641, to the House of Commons: “A Speech Concerning Episcopacy”

Post by username

Post by Harold
I don't think even Americans spell it "rediculous".

it seems you cannot distinguish between a typo and an error.
never mind.
thank you

[Mark Thornton]

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

I wouldn't consider hyperdictionary to be particularly authoritative. My
own English dictionary (printed and compiled in England by the Oxford
University Press) does not contain the word. I suspect that it would not
be considered good English in this country (England). Also note that
dictionaries contain many words whose use is not currently recommended
for a variety of reasons.
Of course this is the "Internet" where mangled language is the norm.

Mark Thornton

[username]

Post by Mark Thornton

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

I wouldn't consider hyperdictionary to be particularly authoritative. My
own English dictionary (printed and compiled in England by the Oxford
University Press) does not contain the word. I suspect that it would not
be considered good English in this country (England). Also note that
dictionaries contain many words whose use is not currently recommended
for a variety of reasons.
Of course this is the "Internet" where mangled language is the norm.
Mark Thornton

try an american dictionary.

[username]

Post by Mark Thornton

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

I wouldn't consider hyperdictionary to be particularly authoritative. My
own English dictionary (printed and compiled in England by the Oxford
University Press) does not contain the word. I suspect that it would not
be considered good English in this country (England). Also note that
dictionaries contain many words whose use is not currently recommended
for a variety of reasons.
Of course this is the "Internet" where mangled language is the norm.

is http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/ more convincing to you?

Of course we can discuss the definition of language. Is it the list of words
in a book written by someone you blindly follow or is the the
language/wording actual people use?

hm, in fact this is interesting, and I now see the relevance of this to this
thread: blind java purists against real world people.
interesting, thank you!

[m***@home.com]

Post by username

Post by Mark Thornton

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?
hint: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

I wouldn't consider hyperdictionary to be particularly authoritative. My
own English dictionary (printed and compiled in England by the Oxford
University Press) does not contain the word. I suspect that it would not
be considered good English in this country (England). Also note that
dictionaries contain many words whose use is not currently recommended
for a variety of reasons.
Of course this is the "Internet" where mangled language is the norm.

is http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/ more convincing to you?
Of course we can discuss the definition of language. Is it the list of words
in a book written by someone you blindly follow or is the the
language/wording actual people use?

That would rather depend on who was using it. In this case I think
your use of it would prima facie indicate that it probably wasn't
correct.

Post by username
hm, in fact this is interesting, and I now see the relevance of this to this
thread: blind java purists against real world people.
interesting, thank you!

From my position at least this has nothing whatever to do with java,
just the mandatory Usenet disciplining of an obvious troll and idiot.

[username]

Post by m***@home.com

Post by username

Post by Mark Thornton

Post by John D.

Post by m***@home.com

you show so many signs of naiveness, I don't know where to start to

counter

Post by m***@home.com

them....

You could start by learning english, or french maybe. The word you're
mangling is "naïveté".

really?

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=naiveness

Post by m***@home.com

Post by username

Post by Mark Thornton
I wouldn't consider hyperdictionary to be particularly authoritative. My
own English dictionary (printed and compiled in England by the Oxford
University Press) does not contain the word. I suspect that it would not
be considered good English in this country (England). Also note that
dictionaries contain many words whose use is not currently recommended
for a variety of reasons.
Of course this is the "Internet" where mangled language is the norm.

is http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/ more convincing to you?
Of course we can discuss the definition of language. Is it the list of words
in a book written by someone you blindly follow or is the the
language/wording actual people use?

That would rather depend on who was using it. In this case I think
your use of it would prima facie indicate that it probably wasn't
correct.

that's a very odd statement! in fact it is contradictory!

Post by m***@home.com

Post by username
hm, in fact this is interesting, and I now see the relevance of this to this
thread: blind java purists against real world people.
interesting, thank you!

From my position at least this has nothing whatever to do with java,
just the mandatory Usenet disciplining of an obvious troll and idiot.

I agree, but I would not go as far as to call "asj" an idiot.

[asj]

Post by m***@home.com
From my position at least this has nothing whatever to do with java,
just the mandatory Usenet disciplining of an obvious troll and idiot.

everyone has pretty much agreed on that ;-)

i can stomach trolls, if they actually have some points to make, but
arguing with someone who (1) switches discussions or snips off comments
when they have no counter arguments, (2) uses nonsensical one-liners
instead of reasoned arguments, and (3) outright LIES (then falls silent
when you use google to catch him) is a bit much.

[Brandon Blackmoor]

As it is asj who writes it (the troll) and he is writing
about a troll, let's assume he means me.

Gosh, d'ya think so?

[Tim Tyler]

In comp.lang.java.advocacy Carlos Bazzarella <***@outpoliplus.com> wrote:

: Here is a perspective from a devolted Handheld Java developer for many
: years. If you doubt me, check out our web site and apps.

Where are your web site or apps?

[asj]

Post by Tim Tyler
Where are your web site or apps?

use his email address. pretty small outfit looks like. but again, he
makes some good points.

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Post by asj

Post by Tim Tyler
Where are your web site or apps?

use his email address. pretty small outfit looks like. but again, he
makes some good points.

Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

Carlos.

[asj]

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Post by asj

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

I am talking about big Software developers and not hardware makers.
Hardware makers jumped on Java like an Elephant on a mouse just to
protect themselves from the evil empire (Microsoft) and they also
figured more software would be written for their devices since they
weren't going anywhere with C/C++ and their proprietary APIs (talking
about RIM here).

Now let's see the big hardware players.

Sharp, recently dumped Jeode (amazing implementation of Java) for
Sun's J2ME Personal Profile (on latest C760 device). In the process
not one single previous Java application can run on this device.
Whatever happened to Java's amazing capabilities.

SAP, no comment since the discussion here is for Handhelds and cell phones.
Same for Sega.

Now IBM has J9 (they recently changed the name though) and their first
deal was with Palm for future Tungsten. So all of this is future things
so there is also nothing to comment right now. We'll see what we, developers,
can do with their JVM on Palm's future Tungsten.

For RIM there isn't still that many Java based apps out there, not
to mention that RIM is not very happy about MIDP 2.0 and so far I
don't think they have committed to it. Another blow to Java don't
you think ?


Carlos.

Post by asj
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

[asj]

hardware makers? SAP is the largest software company in europe (if not
the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
applications in Java).

i suggest you learn more before making general statements like you have.
(although again, i see your points with regards to compatibility
problems in MIDP 1 - but things can only get better as these problems
are addressed in later versions)....

one initial stop might be at the Lurker's Guide to J2ME:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/

here's an example of the above:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAP, Sharp to build J2ME applications that deliver real-time data across
corporate networks
(Internet News 2003-7-7)

Enterprise software company SAP AG and Japanese electronics giant Sharp
have teamed up in order to build applications that deliver real-time
data across corporate networks to smaller mobile devices.

The applications will be designed using open source operating system
Linux and Java-based programming protocols, in an expansion of the
companies' support for non-Windows-based software and vendors.

The deal marks yet another company embracing open-source operating
systems in the development of enterprise-focused applications. Mobile
phone and electronics giant Motorola recently threw its weight behind
Linux-based mobile device and software development.

The support of major companies like SAP, Sharp and Motorola gives the
Linux-based mobile operating system a boost at a time when it is
increasingly seen as a threat to Microsoft's proprietary Windows CE
mobile device operating system, as well as alternatives offered by
VxWorks and Palm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
I am talking about big Software developers and not hardware makers.
Hardware makers jumped on Java like an Elephant on a mouse just to
protect themselves from the evil empire (Microsoft) and they also
figured more software would be written for their devices since they
weren't going anywhere with C/C++ and their proprietary APIs (talking
about RIM here).
Now let's see the big hardware players.
Sharp, recently dumped Jeode (amazing implementation of Java) for
Sun's J2ME Personal Profile (on latest C760 device). In the process
not one single previous Java application can run on this device.
Whatever happened to Java's amazing capabilities.
SAP, no comment since the discussion here is for Handhelds and cell phones.
Same for Sega.
Now IBM has J9 (they recently changed the name though) and their first
deal was with Palm for future Tungsten. So all of this is future things
so there is also nothing to comment right now. We'll see what we, developers,
can do with their JVM on Palm's future Tungsten.
For RIM there isn't still that many Java based apps out there, not
to mention that RIM is not very happy about MIDP 2.0 and so far I
don't think they have committed to it. Another blow to Java don't
you think ?
Carlos.

Post by asj
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

[username]

Post by asj
hardware makers? SAP is the largest software company in europe (if not
the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
applications in Java).

ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the rest
of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
to them

[asj]

Post by username
ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the rest
of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
to them

what other comments? he went over the list of companies i gave and tried
to show they did not do j2me app development. i showed otherwise (for
RIM, sharp, whatever). for example, i posted that article showing sharp
and SAP joining forces to create enterprise j2me apps and noted that RIM
has its blackberry completely java-based.

you STILL make no points no matter which thread you join! give it up....

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username
ok, so ignore his statement that SAP etc are hardware makers. Then the rest
of his excellent posting still holds, and contains many good points. Respond
to them

what other comments? he went over the list of companies i gave and tried
to show they did not do j2me app development. i showed otherwise (for
RIM, sharp, whatever). for example, i posted that article showing sharp
and SAP joining forces to create enterprise j2me apps and noted that RIM
has its blackberry completely java-based.

no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?

Post by asj
you STILL make no points no matter which thread you join! give it up....

no, please do not give up, enlighten us with your ramblings!

[asj]

Post by username
no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?

are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?

(1) Sharp and SAP entered into a contractual agreement,...this was not a
"marketing" announcement....perhaps you don't know the difference?
(2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".
(3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
announcement".

how exactly should we put it so that you mind can grasp the concept?

[Brandon Blackmoor]

Post by asj
how exactly should we put it so that you mind can
grasp the concept?

"username" is either a shill or a troll (perhaps both), and you are
wasting your time responding to her.

However, I have found the information about Sega and Rim to be extremely
interesting (I had no idea Blackberry was Java based), so your time
hasn't been entirely wasted. Thanks.

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username
no you showed some marketing announcements, stories etc. there is a
difference between that and reality, are you aware of that?

are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?

well, since all others gave up on this thread, I am the only person here
anyway.
think about that.

Post by asj
(1) Sharp and SAP entered into a contractual agreement,...this was not a
"marketing" announcement....perhaps you don't know the difference?

an agreement? so what? what products came out? what percentage of their
total? etc. My point is: everybody is developing with java in one way or
another, that does mean anything.
The company I work for is a heavy java (serverside) developer, but then, the
company is big in development for any platform you can imagine, so is java
winning (what you are advocating) ? no. It is just another language.

Post by asj
(2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".

anyone has done that. so?

Post by asj
(3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
announcement".

so?
windows is C++ based, so?

Post by asj
how exactly should we put it so that you mind can grasp the concept?

first make sure you understand things yourself, ok? now try again.

[asj]

Post by username

Post by asj
are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?

well, since all others gave up on this thread, I am the only person here
anyway.
think about that.

perhaps you should listen to the adage that it is a wise man indeed who
knows how the wind shifts, and does something about it.

Post by username
an agreement? so what? what products came out? what percentage of their
total? etc. My point is: everybody is developing with java in one way or
another, that does mean anything.
The company I work for is a heavy java (serverside) developer, but then, the
company is big in development for any platform you can imagine, so is java
winning (what you are advocating) ? no. It is just another language.

loser....you don't win points for shifting the discussion when you have
no counterarguments.

the original argument was whether any big companies were using
j2me....with your statement above, you pretty much did a complete about
turn and admitted EVERYONE is using java.

now, as to WHY that's important, here's a CLUE...guess what, maybe
living with yo mama means you can do away with earning a living, but in
the REAL world us normal folk have to earn a living, and it sure
gladdens this java programmer's heart to see so many job opportunities
for people who take the time to learn java.

Post by username

Post by asj
(2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".

anyone has done that. so?

hmmm. perhaps again it's because the original argument was that NO BIG
COMPANY DEVELOPED USING J2ME.
i guess you're folding on this point as well, eh?

i mean, c'mon now, give me some real competition here....you SCREW up
BIGTIME by somehow thinking it would COST MORE TO HAVE A LONG TERM
RELATIONSHIP WITH A CLIENT BY USING JAVA, then now you ADMIT EVERYONE IS
USING JAVA when the original argument was that NO big company was using
it.

hey man, at least make me sweat here...eh?

Post by username

Post by asj
(3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
announcement".

so?
windows is C++ based, so?

see above. again, the original argument was that NO BIG COMPANY
DEVELOPED USING J2ME.

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj
are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?

well, since all others gave up on this thread, I am the only person here
anyway.
think about that.

perhaps you should listen to the adage that it is a wise man indeed who
knows how the wind shifts, and does something about it.

think about that!

Post by asj

Post by username
an agreement? so what? what products came out? what percentage of their
total? etc. My point is: everybody is developing with java in one way or
another, that does mean anything.
The company I work for is a heavy java (serverside) developer, but then, the
company is big in development for any platform you can imagine, so is java
winning (what you are advocating) ? no. It is just another language.

the original argument was whether any big companies were using
j2me....with your statement above, you pretty much did a complete about
turn and admitted EVERYONE is using java.

not a turn: I never claimed the opposite (please reread the complete thread)
in fact, everybody does something with C/C++ as well.

Post by asj
now, as to WHY that's important, here's a CLUE...guess what, maybe
living with yo mama means you can do away with earning a living, but in
the REAL world us normal folk have to earn a living, and it sure
gladdens this java programmer's heart to see so many job opportunities
for people who take the time to learn java.

fine, of course there are java job opportunities, but that does not mean the
end of PDA's or the end of wince or whatever you seem to be dreaming about.
the fact that java is used does not support you claims of world dominance of
java at all! now try again.

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj
(2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".

anyone has done that. so?

hmmm. perhaps again it's because the original argument was that NO BIG
COMPANY DEVELOPED USING J2ME.

nope, not my argument. please re-read the complete thread before making
statements like this.
hint: I have written several times that in fact I work at a very big
company, and we do develop (server-side) java apps, but then, we develop
using all platforms/languages you can think of, so that does not make java
special at all.

Post by asj
i guess you're folding on this point as well, eh?

not yet, try again.

Post by asj
i mean, c'mon now, give me some real competition here....you SCREW up
BIGTIME by somehow thinking it would COST MORE TO HAVE A LONG TERM
RELATIONSHIP WITH A CLIENT BY USING JAVA, then now you ADMIT EVERYONE IS
USING JAVA when the original argument was that NO big company was using
it.

problem with your caps lock?

Post by asj
hey man, at least make me sweat here...eh?

you sound pretty frustrated already

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj
(3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
announcement".

so?
windows is C++ based, so?

see above. again, the original argument was that NO BIG COMPANY
DEVELOPED USING J2ME.

whose argument is that? you seem to confuse me with someone else? try again.

[username]

<SNIP>

<snip>

if you look at the thread, you mentioned earlier that carlos made good
points when he noted no big software vendors created j2me apps...

no no, here make a mistake. All I said was that he made good points in his
posting. Never did I say the no big software vendors create j2me apps. Read
carefully please, you are, in all honesty, making a bit of a fool of
yourself here.

i (as
well as any rational person) would take this to mean you agreed with his
points.

I agreed on points in his postings, thats true. so?

you also said those examples were simply "marketing"
announcements. when thumped on the head and corrected, you did an abrupt
about turn and noted that, hey , EVERYONE does java, so what?

nope, you are not getting it. You are twisting the facts, please try again.

(1) you screwed up BIGTIME by declaring that maintaining a long term
relationship with clients using Java would be more expensive.

I never claimed that. I agree that that was what YOU concluded from my
postings, so who is screwing up bigtime?

i pointed
out that there are so many open source implementations of java tools
(e.g. IDEs) and web app servers that it is very easy to get a much
higher ROI for java-based projects than using microsoft, which after
all, needs to make money by charging an arm and a leg for licenses.

well you said that, but you never convinced us, so why repeating your
arguments? try something else.

(2) You display an amazing inability to grasp what other developers who
have to EARN A LIVING know...you ask: "java is everywhere, so what?" the
"so what" is that, if you are a java developer, that means you can put
bread (or rice) on the table...the more ubiquitous java is, the better
it is for java developers. got that?

yes, exactly, that was my point. I also said that C/C++ is everywhere, so
your arguments are not java specific at all. therefore your conclusion,
which is java specific can not be true. think about it please (before you
post an answer)

(3) you declared all java apps to be buggy,

no I never claimed that.

then are exposed as being
one who probably has never written a single java code in your life.

I was not exposed like that (it would impossible).
I agree that you said I was exposed etc, but hey, who cares?

plus, you obviously have not heard that most high end enterprise
projects actually use java....eBAY is using java to do hundreds of
millions of transactions every day....if we just look at two Java web

wrong, in fact I said I was working for one of the big companies doing
serverside java projects. Did yo conveniently forget about that posting?
sad....

PLEASE, continue your one-liners so i can continue to add to my list -
or do the smart thing for once and just thank god you are posting as an
anonymous coward.

thank you!

[asj]

Post by username
no no, here make a mistake. All I said was that he made good points in his
posting. Never did I say the no big software vendors create j2me apps. Read
carefully please, you are, in all honesty, making a bit of a fool of
yourself here.

so he was wrong, BUT he made good points? make up your mind....
this is almost too easy. are you Dutch? is that why you can't seem to
grasp simple terms and arguments? anyways, i posted your actual comments
below. i think it's time for you to get a new handle.

Post by username

(1) you screwed up BIGTIME by declaring that maintaining a long term
relationship with clients using Java would be more expensive.

I never claimed that. I agree that that was what YOU concluded from my
postings, so who is screwing up bigtime?

"ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)"

source:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3252858976d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3f2a93da%240%2449109%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl

Post by username

(3) you declared all java apps to be buggy,

no I never claimed that.

"sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform
specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!"

source:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1286748788d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3f2969d9%240%2449106%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username
no no, here make a mistake. All I said was that he made good points in his
posting. Never did I say the no big software vendors create j2me apps. Read
carefully please, you are, in all honesty, making a bit of a fool of
yourself here.

so he was wrong, BUT he made good points? make up your mind....

well you can be right about one thing, but wrong about another. You did not
know this?
it would explain some of your behaviour.....

Post by asj
this is almost too easy. are you Dutch?

my ISP is dutch. you are jumping to conclusions (again)

Post by asj
is that why you can't seem to
grasp simple terms and arguments?

nope

Post by asj
anyways, i posted your actual comments
below. i think it's time for you to get a new handle.

nah

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username
no no, here make a mistake. All I said was that he made good points in his
posting. Never did I say the no big software vendors create j2me apps. Read
carefully please, you are, in all honesty, making a bit of a fool of
yourself here.

so he was wrong, BUT he made good points? make up your mind....
this is almost too easy. are you Dutch? is that why you can't seem to
grasp simple terms and arguments? anyways, i posted your actual comments
below. i think it's time for you to get a new handle.

Post by username

(1) you screwed up BIGTIME by declaring that maintaining a long term
relationship with clients using Java would be more expensive.

I never claimed that. I agree that that was what YOU concluded from my
postings, so who is screwing up bigtime?

"ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)"

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3252858976d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe
=UTF-8&selm=3f2a93da%240%2449109%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl
so? I never compared the costs/benefits of using Java to another language. I
merely stated that it is user dependent (that's why I said "ask your user").
get it?

Post by asj

Post by username

(3) you declared all java apps to be buggy,

no I never claimed that.

I only said that java apps are buggy, meaning "having a tendency to have
bugs in them". Put like that it is a general statement (and true)

Post by asj
"sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform
specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!"

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1286748788d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe
=UTF-8&selm=3f2969d9%240%2449106%24e4fe514c%40news.xs4all.nl

exactly!

so, you know how re-read messages in this thread! excellent, please
continue, I think it will be useful (to you).

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Like Arnold uses to say... "I'm back !!!".

The point I would like to make is that it doesn't matter if large
and small companies are using J2ME and that everybody seem to be
supporting for one reason or another. My point is : Are there any
useful and necessary apps. that are made possible by J2ME or
is J2ME technically a disabilitating factor that prevents new
ideas to be developed for handheld/cell phone devices, due to lack
of performance, app size and APIs for example.


Carlos.

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj
are you aware you're the only person here who has no idea about it?

well, since all others gave up on this thread, I am the only person here
anyway.
think about that.

perhaps you should listen to the adage that it is a wise man indeed who
knows how the wind shifts, and does something about it.

Post by username
an agreement? so what? what products came out? what percentage of their
total? etc. My point is: everybody is developing with java in one way or
another, that does mean anything.
The company I work for is a heavy java (serverside) developer, but then, the
company is big in development for any platform you can imagine, so is java
winning (what you are advocating) ? no. It is just another language.

loser....you don't win points for shifting the discussion when you have
no counterarguments.
the original argument was whether any big companies were using
j2me....with your statement above, you pretty much did a complete about
turn and admitted EVERYONE is using java.
now, as to WHY that's important, here's a CLUE...guess what, maybe
living with yo mama means you can do away with earning a living, but in
the REAL world us normal folk have to earn a living, and it sure
gladdens this java programmer's heart to see so many job opportunities
for people who take the time to learn java.

Post by username

Post by asj
(2) Sega has created J2ME (MIDP) games, including some of the first ones
launched on sprint pcs. those are NOT "marketing announcements".

anyone has done that. so?

hmmm. perhaps again it's because the original argument was that NO BIG
COMPANY DEVELOPED USING J2ME.
i guess you're folding on this point as well, eh?
i mean, c'mon now, give me some real competition here....you SCREW up
BIGTIME by somehow thinking it would COST MORE TO HAVE A LONG TERM
RELATIONSHIP WITH A CLIENT BY USING JAVA, then now you ADMIT EVERYONE IS
USING JAVA when the original argument was that NO big company was using
it.
hey man, at least make me sweat here...eh?

Post by username

Post by asj
(3) RIM's blackberry is java-based. that is NOT some "marketing
announcement".

so?
windows is C++ based, so?

see above. again, the original argument was that NO BIG COMPANY
DEVELOPED USING J2ME.

[asj]

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Like Arnold uses to say... "I'm back !!!".
The point I would like to make is that it doesn't matter if large
and small companies are using J2ME and that everybody seem to be
supporting for one reason or another. My point is : Are there any
useful and necessary apps. that are made possible by J2ME or
is J2ME technically a disabilitating factor that prevents new
ideas to be developed for handheld/cell phone devices, due to lack
of performance, app size and APIs for example.
Carlos.

hi carlos:

actually, it DOES matter that everyone is supporting it...ubiquity and
acceptance by an entire industry is almost always a guarantor(sic) of
ultimate success, much more so than the alleged technical superiority of
a competitor.

as an example, when j2ee first started out, there were many people
panning the new specs. however, many companies signed on to it anyways,
and this virtually guaranteed the success of j2ee in the long run.

in the same way, the fact that everyone and their mother is piling onto
j2me gives it a better chance of long term success than any one of the
proprietary closed os solutions.

with regards to "useful" apps (which i take it to mean enterprise apps):
why don't you do your homework and do some research to satisfy yourself?
beyond the games, there are many business applications out there,
including inventory control apps, location-aware apps, apps that can
manage corporate networks, etc.

you must remember that midp is not a solution that is standing
still.....as time passes, it will gain more capabilities
(performance-wise due to faster processors, app size die to more storage
in cellphones, and new APIs) and i'm sure complaints will switch to some
other aspect.......i would much rather have that situation than have a
perfect product that is so clearly superior to everything else but is
known or pushed by no one.

[asj]

It is nice to have industry support but it is in no way a guarantee
to success. As a recent example in the same industry look no further
than WAP !!!

never said it was...just meant i'd rather have that strong support than
a platform that no one supports - e.g. mophun.
but you do have a point.

By useful apps I mean innovated apps and not just enterprise apps. I
look at what can be done with the environment and what kinds of apps
can be developed with it and what kinds can not be possibly implemented
with it. Developers don't want to be restricted in what types of apps
they can create. With J2ME there is only a few rather simple
apps you can develop, now with C++ you can do a lot more, just look
at the quality of apps available for BREW compared with J2ME. Also

give examples of what types of apps you would like to see. i really am
interested.

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Post by asj

It is nice to have industry support but it is in no way a guarantee
to success. As a recent example in the same industry look no further
than WAP !!!

never said it was...just meant i'd rather have that strong support than
a platform that no one supports - e.g. mophun.
but you do have a point.

By useful apps I mean innovated apps and not just enterprise apps. I
look at what can be done with the environment and what kinds of apps
can be developed with it and what kinds can not be possibly implemented
with it. Developers don't want to be restricted in what types of apps
they can create. With J2ME there is only a few rather simple
apps you can develop, now with C++ you can do a lot more, just look
at the quality of apps available for BREW compared with J2ME. Also

give examples of what types of apps you would like to see. i really am
interested.

For PDAs/smartphones my vision would be to make them much more powerful than
the software available on handheld calculators. So interesting apps to
me would be a mini CAS with a nice interface, or a mini circuit simulator
(analog or digital), or a mini chemical drawing package, a mini dynamic
geometry package, etc, etc. Basically software for scientists, engineers
and students. These apps require the client device (PDA, cellphone) more
processing than what is currently expected from J2ME apps but we could today
implement them fine in C++.


Carlos.

[asj]

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
For PDAs/smartphones my vision would be to make them much more powerful than
the software available on handheld calculators. So interesting apps to
me would be a mini CAS with a nice interface, or a mini circuit simulator
(analog or digital), or a mini chemical drawing package, a mini dynamic
geometry package, etc, etc. Basically software for scientists, engineers
and students. These apps require the client device (PDA, cellphone) more
processing than what is currently expected from J2ME apps but we could today
implement them fine in C++.

ahhh...thanks for clarifying. so you're saying that you can create c++
apps that do this in a motorola i95cl for example, but which MIDP cannot
handle (due to the graphics?)...

i noticed you do your work in MIDP or personal java in the company
website....so why not skip over and do them in c++ then if you think
this language will serve it better? these are just tools after all, and
you choose the one that serves you best.

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Wow thanks for mentioning the obvious and taking everything I said
literarly. Notice I mentioned no comments for SAP and Sega.
After everything I said and pointed out to, I figure you
would be smart enough not to point ME the obvious educational links.
Remember I am a real developer of Java based handheld/cell phone
apps with real apps. Hey, I am going to read blueboard as if it
was the gospel, NOT !!! You sound like an enthusiast and not like
a professional with real world experience. RIM is my next door
neighbour and I know a lot about what goes on there. You seem to
beleive everything you need, trying doing stuff and you will figure
out that the real world is not like the marketing hype.


Carlos.

Post by asj
hardware makers? SAP is the largest software company in europe (if not
the largest) and sega one of the largest video game companies in the
world. IBM, just in case you forgot, is both a hardware and software
company, while RIM does make its own software (in fact, RIM turned its
Blackberry into a pure Java machine and recoded its built-in
applications in Java).
i suggest you learn more before making general statements like you have.
(although again, i see your points with regards to compatibility
problems in MIDP 1 - but things can only get better as these problems
are addressed in later versions)....
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAP, Sharp to build J2ME applications that deliver real-time data across
corporate networks
(Internet News 2003-7-7)
Enterprise software company SAP AG and Japanese electronics giant Sharp
have teamed up in order to build applications that deliver real-time
data across corporate networks to smaller mobile devices.
The applications will be designed using open source operating system
Linux and Java-based programming protocols, in an expansion of the
companies' support for non-Windows-based software and vendors.
The deal marks yet another company embracing open-source operating
systems in the development of enterprise-focused applications. Mobile
phone and electronics giant Motorola recently threw its weight behind
Linux-based mobile device and software development.
The support of major companies like SAP, Sharp and Motorola gives the
Linux-based mobile operating system a boost at a time when it is
increasingly seen as a threat to Microsoft's proprietary Windows CE
mobile device operating system, as well as alternatives offered by
VxWorks and Palm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
I am talking about big Software developers and not hardware makers.
Hardware makers jumped on Java like an Elephant on a mouse just to
protect themselves from the evil empire (Microsoft) and they also
figured more software would be written for their devices since they
weren't going anywhere with C/C++ and their proprietary APIs (talking
about RIM here).
Now let's see the big hardware players.
Sharp, recently dumped Jeode (amazing implementation of Java) for
Sun's J2ME Personal Profile (on latest C760 device). In the process
not one single previous Java application can run on this device.
Whatever happened to Java's amazing capabilities.
SAP, no comment since the discussion here is for Handhelds and cell phones.
Same for Sega.
Now IBM has J9 (they recently changed the name though) and their first
deal was with Palm for future Tungsten. So all of this is future things
so there is also nothing to comment right now. We'll see what we, developers,
can do with their JVM on Palm's future Tungsten.
For RIM there isn't still that many Java based apps out there, not
to mention that RIM is not very happy about MIDP 2.0 and so far I
don't think they have committed to it. Another blow to Java don't
you think ?
Carlos.

Post by asj
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

[username]

you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing j2me
apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late in
the day...time to go home.

go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of them) you
are making, it seems to me that:
- you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet connectivity,
with a blind faith in java, or
- you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.

[username]

Post by username

you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing j2me
apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late in
the day...time to go home.

go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of them) you
- you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet connectivity,
with a blind faith in java, or
- you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.

Pot = Kettle = Black

explain

[m***@home.com]

Post by username

Post by username

you mentioned there were no big companies supporting and developing

j2me

Post by username

apps - i pointed otherwise, but really apologize if i made you angry
with the "read the freakin' manual" type response. must be too late in
the day...time to go home.

go home??? Seeing the vast amount of postings (and the contents of them)

you

Post by username
- you are un-employed, sitting at home with flat-rate internet

connectivity,

Post by username
with a blind faith in java, or
- you are employed: paid to do java advocacy from 9 to 5.

Pot = Kettle = Black

explain

I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate, but you're not really that dumb
or ignorant are you? Think. HARD!

(Then again, you _are_ a WinCE advocate, so maybe you really do need
a hint. = Compare your activities to the ones you denigrated in your
post. I realize there are a lot of polysyllabic words in there, but
maybe you could use one of your WinCE dictionaries to get the
definitions in a week or two)

[asj]

Post by m***@home.com
I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate,

you're wrong. try again (but first re-read all my posts).

he STILL doesn't get it...oh wow!

[username]

Post by asj

Post by m***@home.com
I know you're a WinCE etc. advocate,

you're wrong. try again (but first re-read all my posts).

he STILL doesn't get it...oh wow!

I find this an effective way of killing a thread, or at least cause everyone
to deny a thread.

[Jon A. Cruz]

Post by Carlos Bazzarella

Post by asj
is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

I am talking about big Software developers and not hardware makers.

Hmmm... then take another look at that list.

SEGA has been a software developer ever since the demise of the Dreamcast.

They were showing all sorts of stuff at E3 this year.

[username]

Post by asj

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.

Post by asj
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

sure, but this is not java specific or even related, hence this will not
give java the edge over the competition.

[asj]

Post by username

Post by asj

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.

(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.

your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld....i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps. is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.

(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;

why should I adress this? I agree with this, so?

Post by asj
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...

uh, please realise that "all the hardware" is also finite at any point of
time....

Post by asj
IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.

are you sure?

Post by asj
your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld...

not true

Post by asj
.i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps. is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?

with you? no.

[username]

Post by asj

Post by username

Post by asj

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.

(1) IBM is only 1 example; you fail to address the fact there are many
big software vendors that are creating J2ME apps;
(2) since even IBM has finite resources, it sure would not be able to
support everything...IBM is spending about 10x the amount of money on
java that sun is, and its support of j2me is very strong....does ibm
create .NET software? does it dabble in window ce apps? does it create
palm software to the extent that it uses j2me? NO.

exactly!! and WHY does IBM support j2me and not palm? NOT because it is Java
(IBM is commercial, not religious), but because IBM is, among many other
things, big in serverside software!
Please do not repeat you're earlier mistakes, by concluding from this
statement that I am claiming the all serverside software is therefore Java
(I really suggest you follow some basic logic course)

Post by asj
your original intent was to disparage j2me by commenting that no large
outfits develop java based software for phones/handheld....

not true, but ok, let's read on....

Post by asj
i showed some
examples of some VERY big outfits that do develop j2me apps.

for handhelds? if not, then your argument is void (again)

Post by asj
is there
any point discussing this further beyond the nitpicking that you are
doing?

as stated earlier: with you? no.

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Post by username

Post by asj

Post by Carlos Bazzarella
Are there any 'big outfits' developing Java based software
for handheld/cell phones devices ? That is another sign
that reality doesn't match the hype...

is SHARP big enough? what about SAP? what about IBM? what about SEGA?
what about RIM?

Is there any product that companies like IBM is NOT
using/supporting/developing?
Hence, the fact that companies like IBM are supporting java does not support
your case.

Post by asj
as the market matures, i'm sure consolidation of the various and many
small players will occur and result in a few very large software houses.
that's just how life works.

sure, but this is not java specific or even related, hence this will not
give java the edge over the competition.

I beleive Java has the potential to beat the competiton but current
implementation basically sucks !!! Even today when we run our Formulae 1
(MIDP 1.0) version on different implementations we come across childish
bugs in the implementation that basically points out that this technology
is not mature or was even properly tested or actually used by outside
developers. Take a look a Nokia's implementation of MIDP 1.0 for Series
60 devices. Read the forums; did you know that you can not use color
when drawing text on a background buffer. It is a current bug. Also
clipping text on a background buffer doesn't work. These bugs are there
today and they released their version of MIDP 1.0 a couple of years
ago (2001 I beleive). As a professional developer this sucks and points
to immature technology. Oh yeah things will always get better but
J2ME was originally hyped in 1999 and 4 years later the hype of then
doesn't meet the reality of today !!! Successful stuff, I think not.

Oh yeah before I forget, Sun has this new combined industry initiative
to help QA J2ME end user apps with Nokia, Motorola and a few other
players (don't quote me on the usual suspects here) but I should just
tell them to test their own Java implementations before they force
developers to test their apps. How can developers get their apps.
running on so many devices when these devices have so many bugs !!!
Clean your house before you invite others in to offer cleaning
services to them !!!


Carlos.

[Carlos Bazzarella]

Post by Tim Tyler
: Here is a perspective from a devolted Handheld Java developer for many
: years. If you doubt me, check out our web site and apps.
Where are your web site or apps?
--
__________

For Handheld devices :

http://www.poliplus.com/handheldproducts.htm

For cell phones :

http://www.formulae1.com

Carlos.

[The Ghost In The Machine]

In comp.lang.java.advocacy, asj
<***@xx.com>
wrote
on Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:37:44 -0400

Post by asj

sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
(or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!

sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
with applets perhaps).
eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped

What's their timetable? My last probe (a day or two ago)
indicates their frontends are happily running IIS/4.
I'll admit they'll probably be the last to go once the
infrastructure has undergone widescale testing -- flip
the DNS and everyone's now happy applets. Or more likely
servlets.

And IIS is supposed to be version 5 or so at latest rev. I don't
know if IIS 6 is out or not.

(I'm not sure I care... :-) )

[rest snipped]

[username]

Post by Brandon Blackmoor

Post by username

however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
move forward with anything for the latest windows ce

well thats bad news for java.

WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

because your users are using it???

[m***@home.com]

Post by username

Post by Brandon Blackmoor

Post by username

however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
move forward with anything for the latest windows ce

well thats bad news for java.

WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

because your users are using it???

Not this user. Not now. Not ever!!

[Eric Lindsay's spam trap]

Post by username
well thats bad news for java. Add to it that within 2 years, 30% of all new
cars come equipped with win ce devices ....

Hmm, adding a crash prone OS to a crash prone transportation
system. Great!

As a point of interest, what handy functions is this expected to
add?

[asj]

As for java, I doubt that's a wise choice in situations where microseconds
count. I hope they don't use it for things like ABS braking, suspension
assist or airbag release. Else the car might throw more than a runtime
exception.

believe it or not, real time java is starting to compete (and win)
against ADA and C alternatives in real world situations.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=real+time+java&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3F1571CA.4056%40xx.com&rnum=2

[luke]

http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
anyone taking the ball in their stead.

Sun has wisely (IMO) decided that the Pocket PC market is not worth
the trouble of getting screwed by the owner of the OS. Obviously,
others have decided the same since no one seems to be anxious to jump
in.

The good thing about this is that it looks like Palm is starting to
squeeze Pocket PC out of most of the enterprise market, and this entry
of IBM into the Palm alliance will only accelerate Palm adoption in
corporations. I believe the latest figures show Palm with more than
50% of the enterprise market and Windows at around 30%+, with Palm
gaining more traction faster after it conveniently forgot about this
market in the earlier years, when it concentrated on the consumer
market.

[dennis m parrott]

If you've programmed a bit in C++, Java isn't any stretch... Some feel that
the object model in Java is a little bit simpler than in C++.

Frankly, Java reminds me of a cross between Pascal or Modula and C with some
object-related sugar sprinkled on liberally.

dennis parrott

Post by William P.N. Smith
Where would one find info on Java in general and this particular "In
June, he struck a deal with IBM to include that company's version of
J2ME, known as WebSphere Micro Edition (WME, formerly known as "J9"),
in all Tungstens moving forward." version of it?
Is Java very difficult, compared to C, Perl, etc?
--
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com

[RaBi]

Post by dennis m parrott
If you've programmed a bit in C++, Java isn't any stretch... Some feel that
the object model in Java is a little bit simpler than in C++.

ACK

Learning the Java language takes a couple of hours - a couple of days if you
want to know the details like static intializers, bit shifting, inner
classes, ...
Easy.

The hard part is in the APIs. There are so many APIs available that you can
learn Java 24/7 for the next year. And then start all over again because
most APIs have evolved in the meantime. Just think about all the nice
acronyms AWT, Swing, EJB, JDO, RMI, JavaMail, JMS, Servlets, JSP, JDBC, etc,
etc

Learning the Java language is like learning all characters between A and Z:
Very easy but without knowing words, grammatics and all that stuff that's
worth nothing...

I'm not discouraging you from learning Java but be prepared to learn a lot.
I've been working full time in Java for 6 years now and still busy
learning...

#rb

[RaBi]

class SimpleApp {
System.out.println("Dude, this is neat!");
}

wow... that's cool. Doesn't even compile!

[asj]

Post by RaBi

class SimpleApp {
System.out.println("Dude, this is neat!");
}

wow... that's cool. Doesn't even compile!

LOL. perhaps actually including a main method (which is executed first
when an app is called) would help, as in:

public class SimpleApp {

public static void main (String [] args)
{
System.out.println("hello.");
}

}

[Person]

Post by Brandon Blackmoor

Nevertheless I consider this a good news - I
am a Java guy and have been waiting for this

Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.
I'm not holding my breath.

you don't need to....it'll be shipping by fall (unlike before, when
announced shipping dates were nebulous at best).......this time, (1)
it's IBM that made the joint announcement; (2) it's not Palm the
handheld maker that is doing this, but the now-separate entity
PalmSource; (3) PalmSource NEEDS IBM to gain more traction in the
enterprise...you could say, Palm needs IBM (and Java) more than IBM
needs Palm....

SuperWaba!
SuperWaba!
SuperWaba!
A VM for Java.
??? where you can dl. Chck Google.

[RaBi]

Post by Brandon Blackmoor
Waiting for the announcement, or waiting for Palm to follow through
with it? Palm has made that same announcement almost word for word at
every JavaOne conference since the late 1990's.

Yes- I still have my good old Palm V bought a that JavaOne when they showed
us Java on it. Must have been '98 or '99.

But this time I think it's different. Big blue is much more reliable than
Sun when announcing that sort of stuff.


#rb

[Andreas Rueckert]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:18:27 -0400, asj <***@xx.com> wrote:

--<snip>--

Yet the users of the many non-Tungsten PalmOS devices are out of reach. So
the market for Java on Palm is really limited outside of controlled
corporate environments.
I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
market.

take a look at J2ME...the market for smartphones in the consumer field
is actually several times larger than that of handhelds and climbing
fast (nearly 100 million java-enabled phones since last year)....J2ME
will allow you to write to many smartphones AND now palm tungstens and
other handhelds....

And you can do it with one codebase. I'm from the Java-Chess team
( http://www.java-chess.de ) and it took me less than 2 hrs to run the
J2ME version on POSE (emulating a 2MB(!) Palm M100). Most of this time
was spent adding the pointing device to our control layer. And those M100
are really cheap on eBay, so I might get me one just for fun.
Now if my midp4palm version would support PNG transparency it would look
somewhat better...

Ciao,
Andreas

[username]

Post by asj
All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).

yawn

[asj]

I think it requires at least all Palm devices and Sonys to build a solid
market.

Palm apps don't have to be complex to be valuable. Canadian doctors
pay for example for a little app that just lists the prices of various
medications in US dollars. It does not even convert to Canadian for
them automatically much less give them much lower Canadian prices.

very good point (although i'm not sure how it relates to what he just
said)...a lot of people have the mistaken notion that to be successful,
an app has to do everything but wash the kitchen sink, and it has to do
it in color. in fact, there are large numbers of small niches that could
be profitably exploited if researched and marketed correctly.

[RaBi]

Post by asj
All Palm Tungstens will now ship with the JVM (Java Virtual Machine),
which means that Java programmers can now write directly to these
handhelds (with no need to download the jvm - an annoying and
debilitating thing when you want to easily reach end-users).

BTW: I just tried IBM's JVM. Doesn't run on my Zire71 but according to spec
it's not supposed to be ready for PalmOS 5. Runs without probs on my Palm V
with OS3.5 but a small HelloWorld takes 14 sec to show up. Still Tungstens
are much faster so we'll see.

#rb